Home Forums Club Development Sunday racing – Afternoon Start?


This topic contains 15 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Christopher J Harris 6 years, 1 month ago.

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    Andrew Jones

    There’s been plenty of discussion in the past around 3 races on a Sunday. While the AGM has voted not to do this, an alternative would be to move the racing to a Sunday afternoon. Start times of 1pm and 2:30pm (or similar) could be considered reducing the time between races.

    This would have the benefits of:

    * Better wind – if the point around wind better after Lunch is correct;

    * Lake would be available before the racing for general use which may encourage more of an overlap between casual users and the race community. The non-racers would more likely be around while the racers rigged and launched and when the race began which would enable a bit more mixing and maybe persuade one or two to have a go at racing.


    Sounds good. Safety boat available 0900 onwards. Race officer could pick course at 0900 as though for first race and casual/new users could try out their skills on a ‘real’ race track then discuss with the expert group. Need to consider overloading of changing area.


    Andrew Jones

    Let’s try and keep the ideas separate please – yes they could be combined, but moving race times would not require additional safety cover whereas what you are suggesting would. You have a point about wanting to do some casual events – let’s keep that as a separate item please as it makes discussion around the points easier.


    Shotwick Admin

    Just to validate a point the third race wasn’t outright voted out at either the last two AGM’s. It was left with a ‘if you want it, you do it’ from the committee.
    (I think there was a third vote on a third race available if organised separate from normal racing).
    In my experience of Shotwick, wind is seemingly better in the early afternoon (land breeze, some stats Jon?) so technically would make more sense. It would possibly encourage use of the lake in the mornings pre racing, when winds are technically lighter so more suitable for ‘training’/free sail however safety cover and organisation would probably end up having to be organised separately from racing and the committee.
    The organisation of such is probably as Andrew says a separate point.
    One of the reasons the three races ‘motion’ hits a brick wall is because it pushes sailing later into the afternoon. This was seen to limit the use of the lake to the people that use it after club racing on Sundays also there is a case that members don’t want the OD duty extending later in the day than it already does.

    A few points…….

    If you were to move to afternoon racing starting at 13:00 on wards (this may be a separate point) you may as well start at 12:00 and have a third race with a break somewhere.
    Having a third race increase you sailing 50% for the same rigging/getting ready time. You could also treat each Sunday (in a very unofficial sense) as a mini regatta when you look at the results. I think this may encourage more people to sail if they cant commit to doing an entire series., just a thought…..

    If there was a morning ‘free sail session’ technically launches will already be on water, club will already be open so in theory should be quicker to get going for the OD’s

    That’s my 2 sense anyway.


    Shotwick Admin

    This was from a ‘leaving’ member I got to know a few years ago. I took interest as he is one of the big voices among the GP14’s in the North West. He was only with us for six months and didn’t renew. There are a few mute points here. I have shared this with the committee but haven’t received any feedback or even reply to confirm they have read it.

    I’ve not been down to Shotwick since May. I’m working away more and more and when I get home on a saturday night, to drive all that way (ok only from wrexham) for only 2 races, its just not for me.

    Shame as its a lovely place to sail, but if I’m going to drive to a club (rather than Gresford thats walking distance from my house) I’ll be driving to Bala or Shropshire.

    I really thought i was going to enjoy it, but didn’t! and the Wife hated all the sitting around between just two races! and if you think Shotwick is small! try Gresford!!! its about 1/6th!

    Most club’s i’ve sailed have been 3 races in the afternoon, well thats what Gresford does, Shropshire does a long (1hr30) pursuit race in the morning and 4 short (30-40) class/handicap/whatever races in the afternoon, so even you morning or afternoon you can still have a sail! I think its a shame that there isn’t an actual ‘favoured’ class at Shotwick, ok its nice to see lots of boats or all shapes and sizes, but really it just adds to the lack of structure there for me!

    I’m still alittle peeved to behonest at returning home from after being in and out of the country (joys of a truck driver) and finding a letter on the mat from the club saying I was safety or something THAT weekend. Ok nice and formal, but I’d asked for email’s and also asked that they don’t give me any ‘duties’ in the summer as I’m always having to fly out to meet drivers who need to be home! But think they’ve got stuck in the ‘we’ve always done it this way’ and for that, I don’t think I’ll re-join next year!

    raises a few arguments alongside the afternoon races point that Andrew raises.


    Jon Edwards

    Wind strength profiles for 2013 can be found here.

    Whilst Wednesday evenings show a clear downward trend with a significant chance of very light winds after 8pm (20:00), there is very little evidence of a significant increase in wind strength during Sundays.

    On a more personal note, I left Shotwick a few years back to join another club with more water and a higher level of sailing ability. They sailed 3 races on a Sunday with the first one beginning at 12pm prior to a lunch break and then 2 more back to back. Whilst I enjoyed having the larger sailing area and more testing competition, in the end I left and returned to Shotwick after a couple of seasons as the late start and 3 races just didn’t suit me in terms of how I wanted to utilise my time on a Sunday. So the fact that we are different to other clubs in what we offer is not always a negative.


    Andrew Jones

    I guess the problem to me is the large gap between races which means the day is used up to 2pm with only a couple of hours on the water. This is why I suggested splitting the series and moving the races to the afternoon, as I think the amount of sailing could be achieved with a smaller footprint on people’s time.


    Shotwick Admin

    I would second that from Andy, we only usually get 1.5-2hrs worth of racing for being at the club for about 4hrs-5hrs. It’s not a great return.
    However if the break is removed, what would happen to the galley & volunteers.
    Its a tough one to change with large implications.


    I said ” as


    for first race. It wouldn’t be a race. It would simply show newcomers what a race organiser would be likely to choose in those winds. This would give non-racers a reality check. My point was that if the two races were moved to after-noon then the morning could be well used. The safety boat would be a bonus as it is usually being put into the water well in advance of racing. Apart from this advantage, it would be simply changing the free afternoon sailing to free morning sailing.

    The 3 races suggestion was partly put on ice because non-racers were perceived as wanting to sail in the afternoon. This was true, however, it appears from the speed at which the safety boat arrives back in the garage, that the some ODs and safety crews had no intention of taking any interest in activities beyond their required duties. People do sail on Sunday afternoon, but are invisible to those who rush from boat to home.
    What is clear from the above is that there are, within the racing group, a number who simply want the organisation to fit with their individual desires. “You can please some of….etc”. As for an answer from the Committee – I’ve never had one to questions I’ve asked.

    More constructively, perhaps
    1. the break period could be changed to two shorter ones: e.g. 1100 race 1200 break 12.30 race 1330 break 1400 race 1500 water free. This would give water time for non-racers early and late?
    2. the discussion subjects could be concatonated,e.g. with two handicap races as above and the third being the Pursuit?


    Dave Herbstritt

    For us at least, we find the present format of the Sunday racing good. Get up first thing Sunday as early as we dare, sail, have a lunch and a chat, sail again and then the opportunity to practice or socialise further as we please.
    The break for lunch between the 2 races makes for a sociable event. It wouldn’t be the same if it was before or after races.

    How many non racing sailors would actually come to the Lake for just a short morning’s sail? – only to have to leave the lake around 11.45 to make way for the racing.

    Re 2 or 3 races? Having three 1 hr races with 1/2 hr gaps in between leaves no time for lunch, which would mean being on the water until past 3 o’clock before having any food – this may not be very popular for some and raises issues about the management of the galley and the great job the galley girls do for us – we would miss it if they weren’t there, let’s face it!



    Andrew Jones

    The thinking around this and splitting the series on a Sunday is to try and enable people to take an active part in race series for a lower investment of time. At the moment to take an active part in any Sunday series requires a significant chunk of a Sunday to be used up which does not suit everyone.

    Further to this, the amount of time spent sailing as a proportion of the current time spent ‘out’ is quite low. It would be good if people had more choice over how much time they needed to spend at the club to be active in any series. The current set up is not very family friendly, and that in term will probably be impacting the membership demographics.


    Paula Whitlow

    Sunday racing makes it very difficult for windsurfers to use the lake, a short window first thing would be useless for most of us. We are able to use the lake after racing when the lighter/longer days kick in, if you extend racing this will limit our options to only using the lake on Saturdays.


    Lots of ideas and comments on this thread, but, apart from the writers, there is little factual information about the time people want to spend at the club, the facilities they expect, the conflicts between family, sailing and work on a weekend, etc.
    To make sense of any proposals really needs some sort of survey allowing all to contribute and time for due consideration and consultation. Without this there is likelyhood of causing unintended consequences such as not taking windsurfer needs into account (nobody raised their needs until Paula’s post).
    I suggest that the matter is raised at AGM but not with the intention of immediate changes. It may well be that, once the desires of all members are seen, the resolution of the problem will be in a different direction to the suggestions so far made.


    Rich Jones

    Taking into account the feedback I have had every time I have suggested it to the committee the biggest reason why this hasn’t gone forward yet is because people on Duty do not want to spend the whole day at the club.

    I completely understand this, however to take the club forward in both the type of people we attract and the caliber of sailors improving 3 races seems to be the way forward for most clubs.

    My suggestion would be instead of 2 1 hours races like we are supposed to have we could try 3 40 min races (2 back to back in the afternoon) in theory we should finish at the same time.



    You need to allow another 20 minutes for GP14s to be pulled out of the mud after race 2.

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